Nationalisation and the BR Crest

[Luke Briner]

I have seen several locos labelled as early and late BR crest (on the
Bachman adverts on Model Rail for example!!).

What are the rough dates that would have related to the various crests or
was there quite an overlap? I assume that as soon as the railways were
nationalised, the locos were repainted in early crest, but this wouldn't
have happened overnight.

I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not important) but I
wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time around
Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)

Thanks

Luke

[John Ruddy]

Post by Luke Briner
I have seen several locos labelled as early and late BR crest (on the
Bachman adverts on Model Rail for example!!).
What are the rough dates that would have related to the various crests or
was there quite an overlap? I assume that as soon as the railways were
nationalised, the locos were repainted in early crest, but this wouldn't
have happened overnight.
I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not important) but I
wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time around
Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)
Thanks
Luke

I can't speak for the WR, but the SR would generally update the crest
when the loco was in for a General overhaul, which could be anything up
to 7 or 8 years apart. Although the crest was officially adopted in
1956, there were still a few Bulleid Pacifics in 1962 running around
with early crests.

[kim]

I can't speak for the WR, but the SR would generally update the crest when
the loco was in for a General overhaul, which could be anything up to 7 or
8 years apart. Although the crest was officially adopted in 1956, there
were still a few Bulleid Pacifics in 1962 running around with early
crests.

Locos also had new crests applied when tarted up for private excursions
sometimes I think by members of the society which chartered the excursion.
At the other extreme locos in departmental service at works depots often had
their old obsolete markings left intact.

(kim)

[John Turner]

Post by Luke Briner
I have seen several locos labelled as early and late BR crest (on the
Bachman adverts on Model Rail for example!!).
What are the rough dates that would have related to the various crests or
was there quite an overlap? I assume that as soon as the railways were
nationalised, the locos were repainted in early crest, but this wouldn't
have happened overnight.

There were three basic periods of identifying criteria for BR locos.
Firstly the legend "BRITISH RAILWAYS" was applied from nationalisation in
1948 for a relatively short period, replaced by the cycling lion emblem
which was used until c. 1956, to be replaced by the BR coat-of-arms which
continued in use until the end of mainline steam.

I've recently come across of photograph made in the late 1950s of a former
GWR tank loco carrying "BRITISH RAILWAYS" although I believe this to be a
particular rarity, whilst other locos carrying the BR emblem did so until
withdrawal in the mid-60s.

Post by Luke Briner
I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not important) but I
wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time around
Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)

I can't speak specifically for BR(WR), but cannot believe that it was any
different to the rest of the BR network.

John.

[David Bromage]

Post by John Turner
There were three basic periods of identifying criteria for BR locos.
Firstly the legend "BRITISH RAILWAYS" was applied from nationalisation in
1948 for a relatively short period, replaced by the cycling lion emblem
which was used until c. 1956, to be replaced by the BR coat-of-arms which
continued in use until the end of mainline steam.

The first "lion passant on crossbar" emblem was officially called a
"totem" and the lion faced forwards.

The later "lion rampant and wheel" (aka "ferret and dartboard") emblem
was a "crest", a true heraldic device registered with the College of
Arms. By the heraldic rules it had to be painted the same way wherever
it was used, hence the lion faced to the left. At least that was the
theory - there were some mix ups in the paint shops and on a few
occasions the lion faced forwards on both sides.

Cheers
David

[Michael Walker]

The later "lion rampant and wheel" (aka "ferret and dartboard") emblem was
a "crest", a true heraldic device registered with the College of Arms. By
the heraldic rules it had to be painted the same way wherever it was used,
hence the lion faced to the left. At least that was the theory - there
were some mix ups in the paint shops and on a few occasions the lion faced
forwards on both sides.

The version I have heard and understood was that British Railways with the
later crest had intended it to face forwards as per the unicycling lion and
commenced using the device in this way until it was pointed out by the
College that that wasn't acceptable and that the crest had to applied as
registered. It would be interesting to know which locomotives had the
forward facing crest, it would be a good modelling variation and one to
catch pedants out with...;)

[David Bromage]

Post by Michael Walker

The later "lion rampant and wheel" (aka "ferret and dartboard") emblem was
a "crest", a true heraldic device registered with the College of Arms. By
the heraldic rules it had to be painted the same way wherever it was used,
hence the lion faced to the left. At least that was the theory - there
were some mix ups in the paint shops and on a few occasions the lion faced
forwards on both sides.

The version I have heard and understood was that British Railways with the
later crest had intended it to face forwards as per the unicycling lion and
commenced using the device in this way until it was pointed out by the
College that that wasn't acceptable and that the crest had to applied as
registered.

Now that you mention it, I think you're right.

Cheers
David

[David Costigan]

The earliest proposed new BR symbol was applied to "Schools" No 826 REPTON
in March 1948. It had the words BRITISH RAILWAYS enclosed in an emblem
which acquired the nickname "the hot dog" - the shape was subsequently used
for station nameboards mounted on lamp posts etc and publicity material. On
REPTON's left hand side the trial emblem was on the (then) malachite green
livery, on the right hand side the "bun" and "hot dog" were a lighter
colour, possibly cram or white. It was not popular and soon replaced by the
plain words BRITISH RAILWAYS, which sufficed until the "cycling lion"
appeared. Pictures of REPTON at Waterloo thus adorned are on Page 118 of
Volume 2 of Railway Design Since 1830 by Brian Haresnape. The book is almost
certainly out of print, my copy cost 3 Guineas in 1969. However, libraries
might be able to get a copy on request. Hope this is of assistance, David
Costigan.

Post by John Turner

Post by Luke Briner
I have seen several locos labelled as early and late BR crest (on the
Bachman adverts on Model Rail for example!!).
What are the rough dates that would have related to the various crests or
was there quite an overlap? I assume that as soon as the railways were
nationalised, the locos were repainted in early crest, but this wouldn't
have happened overnight.

There were three basic periods of identifying criteria for BR locos.
Firstly the legend "BRITISH RAILWAYS" was applied from nationalisation in
1948 for a relatively short period, replaced by the cycling lion emblem
which was used until c. 1956, to be replaced by the BR coat-of-arms which
continued in use until the end of mainline steam.
I've recently come across of photograph made in the late 1950s of a former
GWR tank loco carrying "BRITISH RAILWAYS" although I believe this to be a
particular rarity, whilst other locos carrying the BR emblem did so until
withdrawal in the mid-60s.

Post by Luke Briner
I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not important)

but

Post by John Turner
I

Post by Luke Briner
wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time around
Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)

I can't speak specifically for BR(WR), but cannot believe that it was any
different to the rest of the BR network.
John.

[gwr4090]

Post by Luke Briner
I have seen several locos labelled as early and late BR crest (on the
Bachman adverts on Model Rail for example!!).
What are the rough dates that would have related to the various crests
or was there quite an overlap? I assume that as soon as the railways
were nationalised, the locos were repainted in early crest, but this
wouldn't have happened overnight.
I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not important)
but I wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time
around Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)

Some relevant WR livery and crest info from E.R.Mountford's book on
Caerphilly Works:

On 2 February 1948 instructions were issued that GWR lettering on locos
was to be replaced by BRITISH RAILWAYS in full. Also letter "W" was to be
painted below the cast numberplate.

On 12 March 1948 instruction for painting the "W" was cancelled.

Late 1949 the first BR crest (the cycling lion) was introduced in two
sizes. The first engine to receive the smaller version at Caerphilly was
5682 on 18 October 1949, and the first with the larger size were 4255 and
5649 on 8 December 1949.

On 10 January 1950 instruction that GWR practice of painting the shed code
on front hanging plate was to be discontinued, and replaced by cast
shedplates on smokebox door, with painted details on inside of cab roof.

In November 1956 an instruction issued that certain main line passenger
engines were to be painted green with full lining out, whilst some smaller
and mixed traffic engines were to be painted green but unlined.

On 25 January 1957 the instruction was amended to ALL green engines being
fully lined out. The first engine so treated at Caerphilly was 4152 on 15
February 1957

The second BR crest was first applied at Caerphilly to 5680 on 19 March
1957.

An instruction in July 1957 stopped the practice of lining tender fenders.
6386 on 29 July was the last to have two panel tender lining.

From March 1958 some smaller engines were turned out black instead of
lined green as previously. 2266 on 28 March was first engine turned out in
black instead of lined green.

The practice at Caerphilly (only) of painting reversing rods of tender
engines red was stopped by an instruction from Swindon in November 1958.

An instruction in March 1962 stated that only engines having Heavy General
repairs were to be repainted, and only main line passenger classes were to
be lined green.

My recollection is that the first style BR crest was still reasonably
common in 1962.

Hope this helps.

David

[Andy Kirkham]

Post by Luke Briner
I am modelling a period in the 60s (the exact period is not

important) but I

Post by Luke Briner
wonder what crests/liveries might have been seen at the same time around
Taunton on the Great Western (GWR and late crest ever?)

I have seen published photographs which show that there was still a
tender going about with GWR painted on it almost to the end of WR
steam. In these photos it is attached to a Manor (I can't remember
which one). I would guess that this particular pairing would have been
the result of a swap fairly late in the day, as I can't imagine a
relatively glamorous loco like a Manor remaining unrepainted for its
entire BR career.

The last surviving loco to carry the early emblem was a diesel shunter
employed on the isolated Holyhead breakwater line, which lasted, I
think until the late 1980's.

Andy Kirkham
Glasgow