Wiring electrofrog points for manual operation under DCC

[Robert Flint]

Could someone give me a quick rundown of how to wire a Peco live frog
point for DCC use without a point motor being attached? This is for a
very simple layout where the points will be hand operated and ideally
I don't want any associated switches with the points for switching
polarity etc.

On the same topic, any advice of a suitable DCC controller to
investigate for a simple layout with 3 continuous circuits with
crossovers between them and a couple of sidings?

All advice gratefully received.

ROB

[John Turner]

Post by Robert Flint
Could someone give me a quick rundown of how to wire a Peco live frog
point for DCC use without a point motor being attached?

I've not found it necessary to adopt any special wiring.

John.

[Chris]

Post by Robert Flint
Could someone give me a quick rundown of how to wire a Peco live frog
point for DCC use without a point motor being attached? This is for a
very simple layout where the points will be hand operated and ideally
I don't want any associated switches with the points for switching
polarity etc.
On the same topic, any advice of a suitable DCC controller to
investigate for a simple layout with 3 continuous circuits with
crossovers between them and a couple of sidings?
All advice gratefully received.
ROB

As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the points.
To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of switching as DCC
short circuit currents are much higher, up to the max current of the
booster, than DC and you could burn out the contacts on the switch
blades. As John says you can get away with it as I have done. To
minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing joins so that the section
at risk of shorting is reduced.

Chris

[Robert Flint]

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!

My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?

ROB

[Mark Thornton]

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!
My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?
ROB

You have to use insulated rail joiners on the other ends of the switch
(everywhere except the toe).

Mark Thornton

[Keith Norgrove]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 10:28:36 +0000, Mark Thornton

Post by Mark Thornton

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!
My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?
ROB

You have to use insulated rail joiners on the other ends of the switch
(everywhere except the toe).

You don't need insulated joiners on the outside rails, only on the
frog rails, ie 2 per point.
Keith

Make friends in the hobby.
Visit <http://www.grovenor.dsl.pipex.com/>
Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

[John Turner]

Post by Keith Norgrove
You don't need insulated joiners on the outside rails, only on the
frog rails, ie 2 per point.

That's quite correct, but it's not bad practice to isolate all four rail.

John.

[Keith Norgrove]

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!
My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?

For DCC that is correct, only addition is if you have a reverse loop
or triangle where you will need a fully isolated section to prevent
one rail joining the other.
Keith

Make friends in the hobby.
Visit <http://www.grovenor.dsl.pipex.com/>
Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

[Chris]

Post by Keith Norgrove

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!
My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?

For DCC that is correct, only addition is if you have a reverse loop
or triangle where you will need a fully isolated section to prevent
one rail joining the other.

The same as DC.

Chris

Post by Keith Norgrove
Keith
Make friends in the hobby.
Visit <http://www.grovenor.dsl.pipex.com/>
Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

[kim]

Keith Norgrove wrote:-

Post by Keith Norgrove
For DCC that is correct, only addition is if you have a reverse loop
or triangle where you will need a fully isolated section to prevent
one rail joining the other.

According to the quickstart guide provided with Bachmann's E-Z Command it's
necessary to isolate both rails where two turnouts are joined as a crossover. I
am assuming this is best done with a pair of isolating fishplates?

(kim)

[Keith Norgrove]

Post by kim
Keith Norgrove wrote:-

Post by Keith Norgrove
For DCC that is correct, only addition is if you have a reverse loop
or triangle where you will need a fully isolated section to prevent
one rail joining the other.

According to the quickstart guide provided with Bachmann's E-Z Command it's
necessary to isolate both rails where two turnouts are joined as a crossover. I
am assuming this is best done with a pair of isolating fishplates?

Correct, one of those is a frog rail of one turnout, the other the
frog rail of the other, so complies with the rule to put two insulated
joiners on the two rails of the frog.
Keith


Make friends in the hobby.
Visit <http://www.grovenor.dsl.pipex.com/>
Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

[Michael Walker]

Post by Keith Norgrove

Post by kim
Keith Norgrove wrote:-

Post by Keith Norgrove
For DCC that is correct, only addition is if you have a reverse loop
or triangle where you will need a fully isolated section to prevent
one rail joining the other.

According to the quickstart guide provided with Bachmann's E-Z Command it's
necessary to isolate both rails where two turnouts are joined as a crossover. I
am assuming this is best done with a pair of isolating fishplates?

Correct, one of those is a frog rail of one turnout, the other the
frog rail of the other, so complies with the rule to put two insulated
joiners on the two rails of the frog.
Keith

Out of interest, would it be OK to use a small air gap rather than insulated
rail joiners, or would it be risky with expansion and contraction due to
temperature? I wasn't planning on using any rail joiners if I could help it
and wire each track individually but at the same time would prefer a rail
joiner to unreliable track!

[John Turner]

Post by Michael Walker
Out of interest, would it be OK to use a small air gap rather than insulated
rail joiners, or would it be risky with expansion and contraction due to
temperature?

I have used this approach in the past - mainly to allow easy removal of
pointwork in the event of a fault. You should be alright providing you lay
your trackwork when the temperature is high (mid-Summer for instance) as
otherwise the gap can certainly close up due to rail expansion.

John.

[Michael Walker]

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Michael Walker
Out of interest, would it be OK to use a small air gap rather than

insulated

Post by Michael Walker
rail joiners, or would it be risky with expansion and contraction due to
temperature?

I have used this approach in the past - mainly to allow easy removal of
pointwork in the event of a fault. You should be alright providing you lay
your trackwork when the temperature is high (mid-Summer for instance) as
otherwise the gap can certainly close up due to rail expansion.

Thanks to Keith and John for their replies, and the good advice to wait for
a hot day to lay track (it's the middle of summer here although you wouldn't
know it at the moment!).

[John Turner]

Post by Michael Walker
Thanks to Keith and John for their replies, and the good advice to wait for
a hot day to lay track (it's the middle of summer here although you wouldn't
know it at the moment!).

LOL - you'd certainly know it was winter if you were here in Blighty! ;-)

Blighty - now that's a blast from the past!

John.

[Keith Norgrove]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 09:23:43 GMT, "Michael Walker"

Post by Michael Walker
Out of interest, would it be OK to use a small air gap rather than insulated
rail joiners, or would it be risky with expansion and contraction due to
temperature? I wasn't planning on using any rail joiners if I could help it
and wire each track individually but at the same time would prefer a rail
joiner to unreliable track!

Most of mine are just that, air gaps, till I get round to fitting
cosmetic fishplates.
Depends how well you fix everything down, in some cases I have glued a
sliver of plasticard in the gap to stop it closing up.
Keith
Make friends in the hobby.
Visit <http://www.grovenor.dsl.pipex.com/>
Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

[Chris]

Post by Robert Flint

Post by Chris
As with DC wiring ensure that you only feed from the toe of the
points. To properly wire for DCC you would need some sort of
switching as DCC short circuit currents are much higher, up to the
max current of the booster, than DC and you could burn out the
contacts on the switch blades. As John says you can get away with it
as I have done. To minimize the risk I have IBJs at the crossing
joins so that the section at risk of shorting is reduced.
Chris

Thanks. On a continuous loop how is it posible to only feed the toe as
the supply creeps up rounf the other way, as it were!
My plan had been to ensure that every point on the layout was
connected to its relevant supply, including the main circuits AND the
sidngs, but put insulated fishplates on all the frog connections of
the points. Is this correct?
ROB

See the rough diagram of a set of points where the I is where the
insulated fish plates are required.

/ I
/ /
-------/--X--I--
------------------

Chris